Curse

Sekkira · Feb 26, 2006, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Maybe I didn't word it correctly. I mean that the +15% damage doesn't just work on the base damage of the weapon but to the final result of damage from the action/attack/skill used.

So say you done 8 damage with an axe on a single attack, it would add 15% to that. If you done 50 damage with executioners strike, it would add 15% to that. The +15% doesn't trigger on the base damage of the weapon so say hitting for 28 damage with an axe and executioners, it wouldn't add 15% damage to the 28 and then add the 34 damage from the skill, it would add the 28 damage base damage and the 34 damage from the skill, then it would add +15% damage to the total result.

Pharalon · Feb 26, 2006, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

Maybe I didn't word it correctly. I mean that the +15% damage doesn't just work on the base damage of the weapon but to the final result of damage from the action/attack/skill used.

I'm 100% sure that it doesn't. I just tested it and the numbers came out exactly as you'd expect if the the +15% is only applied to the base damage.

Also, what do you mean by strength being broken? It appears to be working as advertised for me.

Sekkira · Feb 26, 2006, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharalon

I'm 100% sure that it doesn't. I just tested it and the numbers came out exactly as you'd expect if the the +15% is only applied to the base damage.

Are you using a PvE char? Because I haven't calculated the +20% customisation into it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharalon

Also, what do you mean by strength being broken? It appears to be working as advertised for me.

Sitting there for half an hour beating on 100/80 AL puppets, getting your adrenaline up and throwing Executioners at the 60 AL puppet with expected values on hand shows clearly that strength doesn't work at all.

Pharalon · Feb 26, 2006, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

Are you using a PvE char? Because I haven't calculated the +20% customisation into it.

Pvp char. +20%, +15%>50 @12axe, 0str. Executioners will crit for 89 everytime, as you'd expect if the 15% is only applied to the base damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

Sitting there for half an hour beating on 100/80 AL puppets, getting your adrenaline up and throwing Executioners at the 60 AL puppet with expected values on hand shows clearly that strength doesn't work at all.

Wild Blow at 0Str followed by Wild Blow at 12Str shows that it does. You also get 97 as opposed to 89 on an executioners crit.

CyberNigma · Feb 26, 2006, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharalon

Wild Blow at 0Str followed by Wild Blow at 12Str shows that it does. You also get 97 as opposed to 89 on an executioners crit.

I think he's referring to the Armour Penetration part of Strength, not the skills related to Strength. Some others mentioned that earlier in the thread as well, which I hadn't realized either (that Str is supposedly not working).

For example, according to what they are saying, in practice a 13 Strength will not add 13% AP. I still don't know where that came from as I have not searched the forums extensively to see who figured that out and how.

Brett Kuntz · Feb 26, 2006, 08:57 AM // 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

Strength doesn't work currently unfortunately.

Sure it does, Wild Blow hits do more dmg then reg crit hits. Str has always worked, it just isn't very good at all.

Wiki has the crit rate at 1% to 1.5%, which in fact it is 1.46296% per stat or so (maybe a bit higher), if someone knows how to change that.

Red Locust · Feb 26, 2006, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Just hit edit next to the appropriate section, change whatever you want to do, and save changes.

Sekkira · Feb 26, 2006, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Ugh, I keep missing things and new things come to light in discussion about this. I'm just going to quit while I'm behind.

Stabber · Feb 26, 2006, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunt0r

Wiki has the crit rate at 1% to 1.5%, which in fact it is 1.46296% per stat or so (maybe a bit higher), if someone knows how to change that.

If this was derived empirically, as I assume it was, can you give me a pointer to the raw data?

frojack · Feb 26, 2006, 11:21 AM // 11:21

This is somewhat off-topic but please bare with me. While farming Ettin with an axe (max dmg, +15 ^50%), I have repeatedly encountered Penetrating Blow doing MORE damage than both Cleave and Eviscerate. Let me explain...

I like using all 3 skills when the Ettin try to use Healing Signet. I don't know much about formula or stat's, but I cannot dispute what I see.

At full power, and I assume critical...

Cleave strikes for 110 dmg
Eviscerate strikes for 120 dmg
Penetrating blow strikes for 125 dmg!

I cannot understand this at all. Especially when all I read here is that Penetrating sucks. I have 15 in axe, 11 in tactics, and only 1 in strength. Could somebody please explain to me how this is possible?
These numbers are NOT user error btw. I farm a lot and have killed far too many Ettin and this what I have observed. If you would like pictures, I will make some the next time I go farming.

Ensign · Feb 26, 2006, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

I like using all 3 skills when the Ettin try to use Healing Signet...
I cannot understand this at all.

I'd guess it's an order of operations thing. The AP from Penetrating Blow affects the ettin's armor before the -40 from Healing Signet, raising the base weapon damage disproportionally high. Since all the damage adds ignore armor that'd make Penetrating Blow outperform the other skills when the enemy is using Healing Signet.

I.E., the damage formula would be [max weapon damage] * 2^(( 86 - ((armor level * (1 - armor penetration)) - 40)) / 40 ) + (damage add)

For an armor level of 84, you'd get 110 for Cleave, 120 for Eviscerate / Executioner's, and 127 for Penetrating. Rounding probably cleaned up the difference.

Peace,
-CxE

frojack · Feb 26, 2006, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Ah I see. Thanks.

Sekkira · Feb 26, 2006, 03:23 PM // 15:23

On top of that, Eviscerate lowers the maximum health by 20% which on a normal person at 480HP it's technically another 96 damage onto that.

Willis13 · Feb 26, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Thought I had aptly stated that my work was an addition to the damage page and that it was necessesary to scroll to the bottom where the graphs are to see my work, but apparently not. I was in no way trying to steal credit from the origional creator of the page, credit is a trivial thing and I only enjoyed seeing people find use in the actual work I had done. Yet my graphs seem to have dissapeared from the page without notice.

This project started out of personal interest in the subject and grew from there. I say thanks to those who appreciated what I did but I think I will continue this only as a subject of personal interest and will cease all additions to GuildWiki

Savio · Feb 26, 2006, 10:22 PM // 22:22

The graphs were removed because they were wrong and hard to read, not because of credit reasons. It doesn't help anyone if you know they're inaccurate but leave them up anyway.

Also, you can see the history of a page by clicking the History tab at the top, if you're so concerned. There's also the Discussion page to talk about the article.

Pan Sola · Feb 27, 2006, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stabber

Note: the article itself was not authored but the OP. His contribution is limited to the graphs at the bottom. Most of the credit for the article belongs to Pan Sola.

Just thought this should be cleared up, as people seem to be giving the OP credit for the entire article.

/long time guildwiki contributor

Technically I was only responsible for editing the article into its current layout. The foundation of the equations was laid down by SonOfRah in his damage article hosted on gwonline, with additional research and corrections done by various members of the guildwiki community. But thanks for trying to get the attribution straight anyways (-:

Willis13 · Feb 27, 2006, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

The graphs were removed because they were wrong and hard to read, not because of credit reasons. It doesn't help anyone if you know they're inaccurate but leave them up anyway.

Also, you can see the history of a page by clicking the History tab at the top, if you're so concerned. There's also the Discussion page to talk about the article.

haha, yeah I figured that. I was just over dramatizing this whole debaticle for kicks and wasn't going to redo them correctly because they aren't half as interesting the correct way.

Although one thing stayed true Cleave > Penetrating Blow > Executioners Strike with regard to damage over time.

Bugeater · Feb 27, 2006, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willis13

Although one thing stayed true Cleave > Penetrating Blow > Executioners Strike with regard to damage over time.

I didn't crunch the numbers, so I'll take your word for it (dangerous, I know). But one thing that's hard to model is the interaction between adrenal skills. Since using one takes a strike from all the others you have on your bar, skills with low adrenal cost really hurt other adrenal skills. While Cleave by itself may out perform both others, it's a huge adrenaline sink. If you're Cleaving every 5th hit, then you're dropping your addrenaline gain by 1/5*<Number of Adren Skills>. If for some silly reason you had other adrenaline spam skills on your bar (like Penetrating or Fear Me) then your adren gain really takes a beating.

Brett Kuntz · Mar 21, 2006, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stabber

If this was derived empirically, as I assume it was, can you give me a pointer to the raw data?

That number comes from over 6000 consecutive hits per stat under testing conditions. The actuall number was slightly higher but I lost it and the data so I don't know it exactly. But basically, the more hits I used in the test, the higher that % got. According to the devs the hardcoded crit rate is 1% per stat across all weapons. According to tens of thousands of hits, there is a bug causing it to be sporatic and often around the 1.5% rate.